We Ain't Breakin No Lifter Bore This Time

[Rick]

Been busy this late fall, early winter. Best of 4 blocks picked out along with some serious modification so far. Block is filled completely (water will be externally plumbed in thru the heads.) Oil mods thanks to Dave Mongeon and a few other that posted info on the Boards. Machinist used a two step epoxy liquid steel, that was poured into the lifter area on top of a metal brace. The epoxy completely covers the brace and the lifter bores! Then with a small grinder the epoxy was carefully cleared away from the bore hole. We still have to install the oil feed lines and the drain holes along with some more modifications in that area. As you can see the vent tubes and oil pressure tubes are already in place.

I doubt very much I will ever break another lifter bore in this engine. All the internals survived, one rod had to be cleaned up slightly along with the roller cam which suffered a few nicks. The crank is okay and going out to get cleaned and checked out.

I will follow up with more shots as it moves along. I will be ready early spring of '08 (maybe sooner)

[BUICK528]

your going to have to carve out an oil drain channel up front.... :WINK:

[gsjohnny]

ever think of gettig a 350 instead. save a lot of headaches. :T::T:

[Rick]

ever think of gettig a 350 instead. save a lot of headaches. :T::T:

:PANTS::T:

[TXGS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsjohnny
ever think of gettig a 350 instead. save a lot of headaches.

I initially saw this tread and thought to myself way to go rick. However I have since changed my mind do to all the 350 bashing. Johnny was just posing a nice alternative to the 455 block and gets noting but backside

[Rick]

I initially saw this tread and thought to myself way to go rick. However I have since changed my mind do to all the 350 bashing. Johnny was just posing a nice alternative to the 455 block and gets noting but backside

Just breaking his onions and he knows it. I've known Johnny from way back even before he grew his beard and got his lamas....Way back when he was there first :ROLL: When we had creeper races at his old house:TU:

I think the 350 may be an alternative, but not with my case. I am already knee high deep with the big block stuff. Price wise I would say you may spend about the same when it's all said and done whether you build a 350 or 455 to reach 800 hp on the dyno. The 350 blocks are stronger, but getting the other parts, well just about everything has to be custom ordered $$$$$

[TheFly]

Looks neat though, almost like ya poured hot lead or zinc in there. Sucks though that ya gota go through so much to run some decent HP with no worries.

[gsjohnny]

I initially saw this tread and thought to myself way to go rick. However I have since changed my mind do to all the 350 bashing. Johnny was just posing a nice alternative to the 455 block and gets noting but backside


dont worry about me. i'll get back at rick at the christmas party:LAUGH:. i do know this, it was cheaper to hit the wall than to keep popping 455's :DOU::LAUGH:

[gsjohnny]

looking at the material used, i kind of question the strength of the material. (and i have used all sorts of expoxies when i worked at pratt&whitney r&d). i know its well used, but it just doesnt seem right.
how would pouring copper do. maybe a little more flexible for the valley area. just throwing a thought out there......

[Rick]

I will get the name of the stuff. I do know that he ground up the area so that the epoxy bonds properly. I was told it was called something like liquid steel. It is poured. If this was an engine that was to last 60,000 miles I might be worried of it flaking or chipping off, but with only running a few hundred passes between rebuilds, that should not be a problem as it will be inspected once opened up. I have yet to hear of this happening to anyone. Bottom line...it is the only alternative......unless I switch to a 350:T: Not that there is anything wrong with that:WINK:

[gsjohnny]

devcon makes a lot of different epoxies, some with carbide in it. now thats a pain to machine. nothing like real metal. thats why i said about pouring copper in the valley area. just a thought...actually.....naw, not going there. to far far out....

[TXGS]

I think it is devcon. I have used that stuf as well and it is a good epoxy.:BEERS:

[killrbuick66455]

Rick, do you run a rollor cam ?

[Rick]

Rick, do you run a rollor cam ?

Yep, a big one. My engine on the dyno made peak 780hp at 7,000 rpms. Shift points at 7,000. This new one I am hoping to crack the 800 hp mark.

[killrbuick66455]

how much does all that work cost and who did the work did a Real nice job !!Good luck on your 800 HP quest Rick ! I also have a large roller cam but dont know what i should do as far as reinforcing the lifter galley Im going to be running Pro street class at Bpg So i need all the help i can get

[Yardley]

This is why I'm so disgusted that Bull Dog and Edelbrock wasted everybody's time with new cylinder heads. We already have fantastic heads to select from with TA's stuff. What we need is a freaking engine block!

Good luck with it, Rick. I hope it lasts a while for you. We slower racers don't have these kind of problems. I can't imagine how upsetting it must be when you spend thousands of dollars only to get less than one race season out of it.

[Rick]

how much does all that work cost and who did the work did a Real nice job !!Good luck on your 800 HP quest Rick ! I also have a large roller cam but dont know what i should do as far as reinforcing the lifter galley Im going to be running Pro street class at Bpg So i need all the help i can get


Thanks, I should be getting more recent photos in about a few weeks which will show the completed work on the lifter area. I will let you know. The shop I am using is LRB Performance located in Jersey. Doug Hecker and Rob Chilenski use him also. I feel comfortable using him, for one thing he seems very interested on making these blocks survive, and he does know the ins & outs on Buick engines http://www.lrbperformance.com/

As for cost:DOU: Don't know yet...gulp! I have been paying installments twice monthly so that the final bill doesn't give me heart failure, I want this to be a cash no credit card engine. Ask anyone when you get to this level cost, well, it's expected if you want things done right. With this engine all I am doing is installing it in the car. He will be building it and setting it up and running it on the dyno. I'm not even putting the friggin oil in it:LAUGH:. My job is to drool at the dyno session, foot the bill on time and race the snot out of it:ROLL:

[TheFly]

to bad there isn't some way to fill the entire area, without ading a bunch of weight, pinning the whole top into one giant chunk. Though ya would have fun fishin out the lifter when need be.

[Sean Buick 76]

WOW!:SPANK:

[87gn@tahoe]

so whats the name of this stuff?

can it be used for hardblock as well?

[Buicks4speed]

Were you running a TA lifter bore girdle with the last roller before it broke? Just curious since I am running a TA setup with a fairly large roller. Kevin Stevens had the best lifter bore brace I have seen. It was two machined plate that bolted together. One was on top the lifter bores, the other was at the bottom so it was braced with steel at the top and bottom of the lifter bores.

Did you consider drilling a breather hole behind the timing chain into the lifter galley so the crank case could breath better?

Good luck with your numbers. Hopefully it wont want to turn up too high. Mine ended up around 7600........:WOW:

[Rick]

Were you running a TA lifter bore girdle with the last roller before it broke? Just curious since I am running a TA setup with a fairly large roller. Kevin Stevens had the best lifter bore brace I have seen. It was two machined plate that bolted together. One was on top the lifter bores, the other was at the bottom so it was braced with steel at the top and bottom of the lifter bores.

Did you consider drilling a breather hole behind the timing chain into the lifter galley so the crank case could breath better?

Good luck with your numbers. Hopefully it wont want to turn up too high. Mine ended up around 7600........:WOW:

First off as much as I would like to build it myself, I take a page from Clint Eastwood's book; "A man has got to know his limitations":BROW: This engine is out of my league and was farmed out to a machinist who is doing everything in house and is within an hours drive from me, he also knows the ins and outs on high horspower Buicks. My job? Pay the bill and install a complete dynoed engine back into the car, and race the snot out of it:LAUGH:

Getting to your questions: I was running a TA lifter bore girdle. At the time I was not aware that you have to re-adjust the set bolts as they can untighten from the vibrations. Apparently mine did as some of the tabs were lose. Would have the lifter bore broke either way? Can't say. I don't blame the lifter girdle as it does support the lifter bores. I guess it just that these blocks suck. Live and learn ...a costly lesson.

I have seen the lifter brace that Paul Pirnot uses. It was made for Pontiacs. It is not a bolt in piece as you need to custom grind it to match each lifter bore to maximize support. I haven't seen Kevin Steven's piece. Either way this new engine will not have any. We did make it stronger and more attention was spent on it $$$$:RE: I do have a perfectly good TA Lifter Bore Girdle for sale if anyone is interested. $300 including the shipping with in the states.

As far as the vent tubes, yes they were installed. I will have to get some fresh photos next time I visit the shop.

7600 rpms! wow! That's Doug Hecker territory:LAUGH: My new engine should be the same as the old one. Maybe a little more hp. Trying to hit that 800 mark, was 20 hp short on the old engine. RPM's should be the same as the old one, 7,000 thru thu the eyes, I hope to stay clear on anything higher:WOW:

[87gn@tahoe]

so what is the name of this epoxy?

who is the manufacturer?

thanks

[Rick]

It's Devcon Plastic Liquid Steel. Not a putty it's mixed and poured. Here is the link.

http://www.devcon.com/products/products.cfm?familyid=102

[stagetwo65]

You folks might want to cup your ears, and turn your heads towards Paterson, NJ tomorrow, because you just might hear the singsong sound of Buick music drifting across the landscape. We'll see if all this lifter valley filling and priority oiling can keep Rick's motor in one piece, hopefully with lots of horsepowers. :TU:

[DaWildcat]

Get video!

Devon

[tufbuick]

Rick, don't forget to film this event for all to see !!!

[Rick]

Thats right, I have both still camara and video on the charger right now. THe new engine should be fired up by 1 pm Friday (est). And yes Rob and Doug I will bring some ice to cool that intake down. The old motor made 781 dynoed on a humid and rainy day. This one should make plenty more...... we'll see. I'm hoping to get close to 850 hp, but will be happy with 800. Different then my old engine is the jesel rockers with proper ratio rockers for the custom 731 lift roller, pistons were gas ported, new rods, extensive oiling and block modifications just to name a few things. Oil and block mods similar to Dave Mongeons engine mods. No expense spared:WOW:, just wanted it to be done correctly and to make it last.

Oh and the bill:DOU: you don't even want to know. I'll be back on the streets with my usual poster looking for donations:ROLL:

[stg1dom]

Good luck Rick. I'll be patiently waiting for you to post the results.

[TXGS]

Good luck Rick:TU:

[stagetwo65]

Delays! Valve covers wouldn't fit over the Jesel rockers. Machinist spent the morning modifying them to fit. At that point there wasn't enough time to get the motor to the dyno shop, set it up on the dyno, and run it a decent number of times before the shop closes at 5:00. Now Rick's looking at Tuesday morning to run it, Tuesday afternoon and all day Weds to install it, and leaving Thursday for Norwalk. Yeeesh!:DOU:

[GKsGS400]

What complete jackassery.. :DOU:

[stagetwo65]

That's true! At least if we were still dealing with Scotty's jackassery over in Brooklyn, we wouldn't be on any "Banker's Hours" deadlines to close up the shop at 5:00!! When he'd get a motor together (with me sitting there waiting, steam pouring out of my ears) Scotty just rolled the dyno over to the garage door and fired the motor up! Didn't care what time of night it was! Who was going to complain, the Jamaican crack dealers down the street? I drove home from there at 2:00am on a Thurday night one time, with the motor still steaming and crackling in the back of my truck! It was the day before Buick Weekend at E-Town, I went home for three hours of sleep, drove out to Engie's shop in PA, put the motor in the car, drove to E-Town late Friday night, sorted out the car a little at the track on Saturday ( rain water had leaked into the fuel cell), and went out and won Quick-16 on Sunday, the first race I ever won! Maybe, the more Rick has to struggle for this, the closer it gets to departure time, the better it'll run and the farther he'll go in eliminations! Maybe. :GT:

[Rick]

Hell what can I say. Sh1t happens and yes it sucks! Doug you know as most of us that when you deal with engine builders always expect the unexpected. Granted Scotty was good with rolling the portable dyno outside with no complaints from the locals. But there were times too that Scotty even delayed things. I just think it goes with the territory. Whether your building an engine or restoring and painting a car.

When it started to get crazy and rushing to get the last minute things done, I know my belief may be different than others and is even different than what I would have done 10 years ago. Now, I just figure on stepping away and not rushing. I got way too much invested in this engine to push it on the final hour risking a mistake. I'll wait and if I can't make it to Norwalk so be it. but I will give it one last try.

As of today the engine is completed and primed. I was told late today this Tuesday is a go for the dyno. I will wait not taking this engine until it's run on a dyno. So I have to be there by 1pm on Tuesday. I know Doug will be there:HI: for support. So I should have it home by late in the day. The car is all set to get the engine dropped in. If I get no unexpected hurdles I should have it installed by Wednesday night and on the trailer for Thursday.

Posted some shots of the oil galley. Like I said earlier this engine was thought through prior to building it. Objective is making it last and having no oil starvation. Oh and hoping to push out over 800 hp.

[GKsGS400]

PM me your address you Jackass and I'll be there Wednesday morning to help you. :T:

[Rick]

PM me your address you Jackass and I'll be there Wednesday morning to help you. :T:

Will do. Thanks Dave, can use the help. :TU:

[GKsGS400]

:YA:Rick's a happy camper tonight.. :YA:

[stagetwo65]

Yeah, anybody besides me hear the noise drifting over from Paterson? Of course, I heard it because I was standing next to Rick! :TU:

[GKsGS400]

I just talked to him.. He's on his way home with the motor in the back of the van. I'll be there around 9:30am tomorrow with a 4pack of Red Bull. :LAUGH:

[stagetwo65]

I just talked to him.. He's on his way home with the motor in the back of the van. I'll be there around 9:30am tomorrow with a 4pack of Red Bull. :LAUGH:


Git 'er done!:LAUGH:

[Rick]

Damn ain't this sh1t just like the old days on wrenching the car together on the final hours. Good old Doug was on hand ready to spend my money and making sure I didn't punk out on anything, plus some needed support. :TU:

At the dyno at 12 noon, done at 8 pm. Have to say it was the best ever $850 bucks I ever spent. Oh and that included my engine builder and his employee. We broke in the engine on the dyno and after an inspection of the oil and oil filter all things looked great, we installed another filter and fresh oil and ended up doing a total of 16 pulls. No way no how could you have ever done this at one session at the track. Now the engine is done and ready. Just drop it in and go racing, and no tuning or testing is needed.

Unfortunately the elevation was at 3100 feet it was humid and what else...it was raining:DOU: The barameter was at 29.92 and falling. This happened to be the same type of weather I had three years ago when I last dynoed this engine.

We did valve lash adjustments, timing adjustments and jet adjustments, and plugs changes. We even dumped ice on it, which was a shock that we only gained 1 hp with the ice.

On the first pull we netted 690 hp. We were all silently disappointed. So we went to work. In the short of things we ended the day hitting 780.7 hp at 6900 rpm and 679.9 torque at 5300 rpms. True compression ratio is only at 12.2 it's no super stressfull high compression engine. The engine is 482 ci. If we had a better weather related day and some more time on changing carbs and a few other things we all felt 800 hp is very doable. As far as performance? The old engine had 779 hp and the car went 9.20's. It should be the same with this engine.

This engine gives me slightly more power but what is so different is it is built to last and is a much stronger engine. Great care and detail went into the oiling and the Jezel rockers system along with harden pushrods to beef up the top along with extensive work done to the lifter bore area for added strength. Some shots below and dyno figures.

[stagetwo65]

Hey Rick, as usual I have to correct you. The barometric pressure ranged from 29.69 to 29.74 while we were there. It never went anywhere near 29.92, so I guess you weren't paying attention again. Typical.:RE:

[Rick]

Hey Rick, as usual I have to correct you. The barometric pressure ranged from 29.69 to 29.74 while we were there. It never went anywhere near 29.92, so I guess you weren't paying attention again. Typical.:RE:

Hey it was a long day...anyway either way it still sucked:LAUGH:

[tufbuick]

Congratulations !!! :TU: :TU: :TU:

Glad "G" is gonna help put that BadBoy together with you.
Larry and I plan on hooking up with you guys in Bloomsburg/Buckhorn Pa. for breakfast thursday 8 a.m. Drive safe.

[GKsGS400]

Hey Rick, as usual I have to correct you. The barometric pressure ranged from 29.69 to 29.74 while we were there. It never went anywhere near 29.92, so I guess you weren't paying attention again. Typical.:RE:

Thank you Mr Helper.:RE:

[tufbuick]

Thank you Mr Helper.:RE:

Was Doug the official cheerleader at the dyno pull ?

[stagetwo65]

Thank you Mr Helper.:RE:

Hey, no problem! That's what I'm here for! :TU: Actually, instead of dropping the motor in Rick's car this morning, you guys should haul it back down to Paterson and dyno it today. MUCH better atmospheric conditions today! Figures, don't it?:RE:

[Rick]

NORWALK HERE I COME!

All set on the trailer locked down ready to leave in the morning. A HUGEthanks to Dave Shaker for his help. He came over early morning and stayed until 6 tonight before heading out to Norwalk. To our suprise the engine dropped in quickly along with the headers it was all the rest of the BS to install and set up that was time consuming. John Csordas did stop by to check on the progress and to pick up some event fliers. He barely escaped our clutches as just a few more minutes we would have had him wrenching on the car:LAUGH:

So by 8:30 tonight I am DONE! To think just 32 hours ago my car was in pieces and the engine was still being completed and hadn't been dynoed yet. Brings back those memories of years back cramming to get to the event.

Thanks all! And the next step is on the track to race the snot out of her!:YA:

[tufbuick]

See ya in Buckhorn Pa.for breakfast at 8am. Can anyone say.....ROADTRIP !!!

[GKsGS400]

I'm in Buckhorn.. Got here about 9:45.. Left Rick's house at 6 and hit an accident couple miles from his house on 84.. Lost about 30-45 minutes..

Paid off the night help here at the hotel and got my truck and trailer right in front of the windows here in the lobby.. :ROLL:

[stagetwo65]

Capitalism at it's best. Drive safe, we'll see ya tomorrow afternoon in Norwalk.

[GKsGS400]

Well we all made it safe and sound.. pulled in about 4pm after a stop at Summit for an hour or so of perusing their wares. Larry, Moon, Rick and to our surprise and delight Bob Buick is here!!!: YA:

Phil and Doug left Paul Pirnats house around 4:30 and should be here in an hour or so.. Then it's :BEERS: TIME!!

[TomGS72]

Rick,

How did it run at Norwalk?

Tom

[Rick]

Ran it on Friday.

Did about 5 full passes. 3 passes were 9.55's and 1 was 9.56, and one 9.60 run. The weather was not good elevation was in the area of 3,500 feet with the barometer at 28.10. But the car ran consistant and strong. Sixty foot times were in the high 1.20's with a few 1.30-31's

Sunday the weather was better. Re-timed it and re-jetted. I don't think I hit the good spot on the car, need more playing time, but with only 2 time shots and being it was running on the money I decided to leave it. She ran again consistant. Of 5 passes three were 9.56 and two were 9.55s. First round dialed in a 9.55 and ran a 9.56 for the win. Second round I ran the Underdog Regal and did myself in by getting a red light. I decided to run her all out....ran a 9.55:DOU:. on the 9.55 dial-in. The car was right on the money...I wasn't:RANT:

But nothing broke, it didn't smoke, it ran good and I know there is more room in it to go a little faster.:TU:

[TXGS]

Great Job Rick!

[Rick]

Here is a link on one of the runs. This particular pass the header collector fell off at the 60 foot I ran it over and shot it out into the wall. Had it fixed and back racing for next round.

http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/SLD1624/?action=view&current=NorwalkRick1.flv

[dirtrider546]

would you mind either showing some pics or explaining how the oil drain/return lines were plumbed to the oil pan?
thanks
trevor